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PostSubject: Rail Transportation   Mon Apr 13, 2015 12:13 pm

Found the posting about the railroad car loading capacities (posted on 27.05.2013 for both sides in the respective "Corps Operations - OOC Threads"):

Quote :
@ all - Here are some vital informations you gentlemen might need for planning purposes:

  • 1x Locomotive <=> max. 20 cars; with an average speed in the range of 15 to 20 mph.

     
  • Tender – The tender was the shortest car in a train, but frequently weighed almost as much as the locomotive. Its load of wood and water was sized to allow the locomotive to travel about 50 miles before having to restock.  

     
  • Passenger car –  The usual car carried 40 passengers in peacetime (60 during the war) in a little over 40-foot long car.

     
  • Boxcar –> 1x Box Car (~30 feet long) -> 9 Metric Tons = 20.000 Pounds
                 
       
  • Flatcar -> 1x Flat Car (~30 feet long) -> 8 Metric Tons = 18.000 Pounds (these were practically box cars without the sides and roof)

     
  • Stock car –> Horses: 12 - 13 per stock car; Mules: 18 - 20 per car (These cars were flat cars with a wooden fence around the outer edges of the car)



Also the following (posted on 28.05.2013 in the respective "Corps Operations - OOC Threads" ) is still valid:

Quote :
@ all - I've put together a map showing the Railroads (thick lines) and the distances. The thin lines (yellow and pink) from Leesburg towards Harpers Ferry and Winchester respectively are but normal roads. The red // lines show where railroad tracks have been destroyed by both the Union Cavalry and the Confederate Cavalry (both also destroyed railroad depots and stations in that area). Especially the Orange & Alexandria RR is still considered to be in bad shape at least as far down as the bridge over the Cedar Run.

_________________________________
(click on the map to get a close up view)

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PostSubject: Re: Rail Transportation   Mon Apr 13, 2015 12:14 pm

Another posting that is important is the following one posted on 03.09.2013 as part of an official announcement:

Average movement rates
Who will determine the length of time needed for travel? How is the duration of the trip determined? Well here we'll use a combination of common sense and historic data. According to my research we have the following base data:

<table><tr><td colspan="2">Infantry:</td></tr><tr><td width="25px"></td><td>The normal marching time for Infantry units seems to be 10 miles per day (with a 3 miles an hour as a standard marching pace for infantry unit on roads).</td></tr></table>

<table><tr><td colspan="2">Cavalry:</td></tr><tr><td width="25px"></td><td>A good average for Cavalry units seems to be 20 to 40 miles per day (at a rate of two to four miles per hour).</td></tr></table>

<table><tr><td colspan="2">Artillery:</td></tr><tr><td width="25px"></td><td>The normal  travelling time for Artillery units seems to be 15 miles per day if they travel alone (which seldom was the case), more likely it would be the same as the unit it was attached to.</td></tr></table>

<table><tr><td colspan="2">Wagon Trains:</td></tr><tr><td width="25px"></td><td>Here a good average would be 10 miles per day, or as much as the units they were attached to were able to cover. (Typically, a Civil War army would have about 25-50 wagons per regiment to carry its standard load (including food) and to bring forward daily resupply from the railroad or another supply base.)</td></tr></table>

I'd suggest that the above mentioned speeds should all be taken as a standard basis with the following attributes attached to them: experienced troops, good roads, good weather, no fatigue, good supply, good morale, known environment, normal movement.

From the Manual for Noncommissioned Officers and Privates of Infantry in the Army of the United States, Washington, Government Printing Office, 1918:
Quote :
"The rate of march depends greatly upon the condition of the roads and weather, but the average rate for infantry is 2 1/2 miles per hour. This allows for a rest of 10 minutes each hour. The total distance marched in a day depends not only on the rate of march, but upon the size of the command, large commands covering about 10 miles per day, while small commands easily cover double that distance."

So you can move a portion of an army a LOT quicker than an entire army that has to bring along wagons, artillery, etc. that need more rest, food and fodder. Add the terrain, weather, whether you are in friendly or enemy territory you can see that everything over 10 miles wasn't too bad. Looking at the circumstances 10 miles per day could even be the high side, with little opposition to the march, a light baggage train and good organization.

An average person can walk ~ 3 miles per hour but that's by their self, or in a small group. A large group of men is entirely different - anyone who has some RL army infantry marching experience will be able to verify that. So again the guess is that 10 miles per day is alright, 15 would be exceptional. One thing has to be kept in mind though: If one moves his men for days the average distance covered would go down noticeably, especially if the men are expected to fight at the end of a march! Or if there is fighting + marching + fighting and so forth.

Then there is the point of the supply train that is needed to properly feed men and animals - wagons drawn by horses, mules or oxen, stretching over many miles.  A corps column on a single road could occupy up to 15 miles with its wagon trains! Marching the men too far out would require them to forage, slowing down a march considerably as well. So, looking at an army, it's probably the horses pulling the wagons that are the limiting factor, not the men per say. On a good day with well fed and cared for horses on a good road 15 miles is possible. If you cut lose from the train and force march then longer movemen
Another posting that is important is the following one posted on 03.09.2013 as part of an official announcement:

Average movement rates
Who will determine the length of time needed for travel? How is the duration of the trip determined? Well here we'll use a combination of common sense and historic data. According to my research we have the following base data:

<table><tr><td colspan="2">Infantry:</td></tr><tr><td width="25px"></td><td>The normal marching time for Infantry units seems to be 10 miles per day (with a 3 miles an hour as a standard marching pace for infantry unit on roads).</td></tr></table>

<table><tr><td colspan="2">Cavalry:</td></tr><tr><td width="25px"></td><td>A good average for Cavalry units seems to be 20 to 40 miles per day (at a rate of two to four miles per hour).</td></tr></table>

<table><tr><td colspan="2">Artillery:</td></tr><tr><td width="25px"></td><td>The normal  travelling time for Artillery units seems to be 15 miles per day if they travel alone (which seldom was the case), more likely it would be the same as the unit it was attached to.</td></tr></table>

<table><tr><td colspan="2">Wagon Trains:</td></tr><tr><td width="25px"></td><td>Here a good average would be 10 miles per day, or as much as the units they were attached to were able to cover. (Typically, a Civil War army would have about 25-50 wagons per regiment to carry its standard load (including food) and to bring forward daily resupply from the railroad or another supply base.)</td></tr></table>

I'd suggest that the above mentioned speeds should all be taken as a standard basis with the following attributes attached to them: experienced troops, good roads, good weather, no fatigue, good supply, good morale, known environment, normal movement.

From the Manual for Noncommissioned Officers and Privates of Infantry in the Army of the United States, Washington, Government Printing Office, 1918:
Quote :
"The rate of march depends greatly upon the condition of the roads and weather, but the average rate for infantry is 2 1/2 miles per hour. This allows for a rest of 10 minutes each hour. The total distance marched in a day depends not only on the rate of march, but upon the size of the command, large commands covering about 10 miles per day, while small commands easily cover double that distance."

So you can move a portion of an army a LOT quicker than an entire army that has to bring along wagons, artillery, etc. that need more rest, food and fodder. Add the terrain, weather, whether you are in friendly or enemy territory you can see that everything over 10 miles wasn't too bad. Looking at the circumstances 10 miles per day could even be the high side, with little opposition to the march, a light baggage train and good organization.

An average person can walk ~ 3 miles per hour but that's by their self, or in a small group. A large group of men is entirely different - anyone who has some RL army infantry marching experience will be able to verify that. So again the guess is that 10 miles per day is alright, 15 would be exceptional. One thing has to be kept in mind though: If one moves his men for days the average distance covered would go down noticeably, especially if the men are expected to fight at the end of a march! Or if there is fighting + marching + fighting and so forth.

Then there is the point of the supply train that is needed to properly feed men and animals - wagons drawn by horses, mules or oxen, stretching over many miles.  A corps column on a single road could occupy up to 15 miles with its wagon trains! Marching the men too far out would require them to forage, slowing down a march considerably as well. So, looking at an army, it's probably the horses pulling the wagons that are the limiting factor, not the men per say. On a good day with well fed and cared for horses on a good road 15 miles is possible. If you cut lose from the train and force march then longer movements are possible. However, this involves risk and brings the troops out of supply and thus isn't sustainable. It's only used when reinforcing forces in contact or rarely on raids (such as Jackson did in the Valley on occasion).

Over prolonged campaigns armies tend to move slowly. (e.g. in the Valley Jackson was sub-5 miles a day on average).

ts are possible. However, this involves risk and brings the troops out of supply and thus isn't sustainable. It's only used when reinforcing forces in contact or rarely on raids (such as Jackson did in the Valley on occasion).
Another posting that is important is the following one posted on 03.09.2013 as part of an official announcement:

Average movement rates
Who will determine the length of time needed for travel? How is the duration of the trip determined? Well here we'll use a combination of common sense and historic data. According to my research we have the following base data:

<table><tr><td colspan="2">Infantry:</td></tr><tr><td width="25px"></td><td>The normal marching time for Infantry units seems to be 10 miles per day (with a 3 miles an hour as a standard marching pace for infantry unit on roads).</td></tr></table>

<table><tr><td colspan="2">Cavalry:</td></tr><tr><td width="25px"></td><td>A good average for Cavalry units seems to be 20 to 40 miles per day (at a rate of two to four miles per hour).</td></tr></table>

<table><tr><td colspan="2">Artillery:</td></tr><tr><td width="25px"></td><td>The normal  travelling time for Artillery units seems to be 15 miles per day if they travel alone (which seldom was the case), more likely it would be the same as the unit it was attached to.</td></tr></table>

<table><tr><td colspan="2">Wagon Trains:</td></tr><tr><td width="25px"></td><td>Here a good average would be 10 miles per day, or as much as the units they were attached to were able to cover. (Typically, a Civil War army would have about 25-50 wagons per regiment to carry its standard load (including food) and to bring forward daily resupply from the railroad or another supply base.)</td></tr></table>

I'd suggest that the above mentioned speeds should all be taken as a standard basis with the following attributes attached to them: experienced troops, good roads, good weather, no fatigue, good supply, good morale, known environment, normal movement.

From the Manual for Noncommissioned Officers and Privates of Infantry in the Army of the United States, Washington, Government Printing Office, 1918:
Quote :
"The rate of march depends greatly upon the condition of the roads and weather, but the average rate for infantry is 2 1/2 miles per hour. This allows for a rest of 10 minutes each hour. The total distance marched in a day depends not only on the rate of march, but upon the size of the command, large commands covering about 10 miles per day, while small commands easily cover double that distance."

So you can move a portion of an army a LOT quicker than an entire army that has to bring along wagons, artillery, etc. that need more rest, food and fodder. Add the terrain, weather, whether you are in friendly or enemy territory you can see that everything over 10 miles wasn't too bad. Looking at the circumstances 10 miles per day could even be the high side, with little opposition to the march, a light baggage train and good organization.

An average person can walk ~ 3 miles per hour but that's by their self, or in a small group. A large group of men is entirely different - anyone who has some RL army infantry marching experience will be able to verify that. So again the guess is that 10 miles per day is alright, 15 would be exceptional. One thing has to be kept in mind though: If one moves his men for days the average distance covered would go down noticeably, especially if the men are expected to fight at the end of a march! Or if there is fighting + marching + fighting and so forth.

Then there is the point of the supply train that is needed to properly feed men and animals - wagons drawn by horses, mules or oxen, stretching over many miles.  A corps column on a single road could occupy up to 15 miles with its wagon trains! Marching the men too far out would require them to forage, slowing down a march considerably as well. So, looking at an army, it's probably the horses pulling the wagons that are the limiting factor, not the men per say. On a good day with well fed and cared for horses on a good road 15 miles is possible. If you cut lose from the train and force march then longer movements are possible. However, this involves risk and brings the troops out of supply and thus isn't sustainable. It's only used when reinforcing forces in contact or rarely on raids (such as Jackson did in the Valley on occasion).

Over prolonged campaigns armies tend to move slowly. (e.g. in the Valley Jackson was sub-5 miles a day on average).

Over prolonged campaigns armies tend to move slowly. (e.g. in the Valley Jackson was sub-5 miles a day on average).

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PostSubject: Re: Rail Transportation   Mon Apr 13, 2015 12:15 pm

@ Major General Kirk - Sorry for not getting back to you earlier. The following values (that have been mentioned above) have been comprised from several sources and seem to be are a pretty good standard to utilize:

&emsp;▪  Locomotive → 1 could move 20 cars max.; with an average speed in the range of 15 to 20 mph.
&emsp;▪  Tender → Its load of wood and water was sized to allow the locomotive to travel about 50 miles before having to restock.  
&emsp;▪  Passenger car → The usual car carried 40 passengers in peacetime (60 during the war) in a little over 40-foot long car.
&emsp;▪  Boxcar → 1x Box Car (~30 feet long) → 9 Metric Tons = 20.000 Pounds
&emsp;▪  Flatcar → 1x Flat Car (~30 feet long) → 8 Metric Tons = 18.000 Pounds (these were practically box cars without the sides and roof)
&emsp;▪  Stock car → Horses: 12 - 13 per stock car; Mules: 18 - 20 per car (These cars were flat cars with a wooden fence around the outer edges of the car)

Apart from that I think yeah the number you came up with sounds pretty reasonable as far as I can tell. I reckon this would just be the men, without any supplies or heavy ordnance?

As you said one of the major problems back then was definitely that of different gauges (especially in the Confederate States), which made it necessary to unload and reload men, beast, equipment &  supplies multiple times. Also - if I remember the literature correctly -Longstreet was forced to take a longer route, due to several successes of the Union Army, which made a more direct route impossible and/or too dangerous.

Anyway I think it best to neglect different gauges as that would unnecessarily complicate things. It would be more than enough if we "enforce" the necessity of reloading things if units are moved over several official railway-lines.

========================

@ Bvt. Major General Johnston - As Robert correctly pointed out - and as mentioned in a posting above - those lines are damaged (some very heavily) and are (at least in part) unusable by either side at the moment. This is the quite costly result and aftermath of the blunder that did cost the Confederates their position around Centerville, VA and forced their subsequent retreat. If I remember correctly at some point Lieutenant General McPherson requested repairs to be made if possible but as we turned back the clock so to speak we've to determine how much (if any) parts have actually been repaired. Don't forget it has been winter as well.

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